On Feb 23, 2010, at 12:05 PM, matt stampe wrote:
I dont feel Taijiquan people can fight.
Well, I don't feel that very many of them can fight - but some of them can......
Only a very small percentage might be able to correctly throw a punch, but that is after exploring other avenues the same way William CC Chen did with his research of boxing and combat.
OK, for the last freakin' time - William Chen is NOT throwing boxing punches!
His punches are derived directly from his TCC form, which is why, although he learned from Prof. Cheng, there are certain moves in William's set that are NOT in Cheng's form, like "Fan Through the Back"....
Master Chen did this very consciously and purposely, so that the movements of the form, when practiced either in the form, in small groups of repeated postures, or as individual movements, would feel EXACTLY the same way in the student's proprioceptive feed-back loops as they do in the form, so that even under the pressures of free-sparring, you could tell whether you were doing it correctly, or missing the mark because you had allowed tension to creep into your body.
What looks like a "straight jab" is derived DIRECTLY from "Fan through the Back", and when you throw it, inside your body it feels EXACTLY the way it does when you do the TCC form.
What looks like a "Right Cross" to the head or body is derived DIRECTLY from "Brush KNee Strike with Palm", and when you throw it, inside your body it feels EXACTLY the way it does when you do the TCC form.
His "Hook Punch" to the head or body is derived DIRECTLY from "Wave Hands Like Clouds", and when you throw it, inside your body it feels EXACTLY the way it does when you do the TCC form.
I could go on, but hopefully at long last at least some of you will finally get the sense of what I am saying here....
I mean - geez, this is like the 50th time since I've been here time that someone has claimed that Wm. Chen is BOXING!!!!!
He's not BOXING! - he's actually, really and truly, "doing" Tai Chi Chuan!
On Feb 23, 2010, at 5:55 PM, Raymond Abeyta wrote:
Thanks for this post Michael!
Well, I guess I did let myself get a little agitated, sorry for that, but wow! - how many times do you have to repeat something to a group of supposedly intelligent people?
Wm. Chen is one of the smartest guys I have ever met, and I've had a very good education, even had some teachers who were under consideration for things like the Nobel Prize, won various national Book Awards, etc. - and I would put sifu Chen right up there with the absolute best of them, in the very top tier.
Sifu Chen's method is basically divided into four sections 1) Form work 2) Push-hands 3) Applications 4) Free-Sparring.
Now would a really, REALLY smart person make his life that much harder, by devising a method where they were doing four DIFFERENT sets of Internal bio-mechanics for EACH of these activities?
Or would this very intelligent person make his method have the SAME Internal bio-mechanics throughout all four?
I mean, if someone would only give it a few moments thought, they would figure it out for themselves in short order.
Let me repeat: whatever segment of his practice Wm. Chen is doing at any given moment, he's always doing Tai CHi Chuan - whether he's doing Form, Push-hands, Applications, or Free-sparring - it's ALL tai Chi Chuan, all the time!
On Feb 23, 2010, at 9:31 PM, adammizner wrote:
what is the heavy use of punches? is it because of a focus on gloved ring fighting? i personally much prefer to play the mentioned strikes as they are in the form with the same hand rather than change it to a fist.
It's just something to do so one can get used to the back-and-forth of free fighting; the hands are not taped, and the fists are very loosely closed, so as not to induce tension - and 16 oz. gloves are used so you don't have to go home to your wife and kids with fat lips and black eyes.......
Basically, it's just a training regimen..... .
Fwiw, I had a number of matches without gloves and did just fine - the training doesn't seem to impede your "open-handed" options at all.....
On Feb 24, 2010, at 4:57 AM, fbernall wrote:
However, it has been documented on various sources on the web and in print that early in his training he sought the help, guidance, or whatever one wants to call it, from Western boxing..
Show me the quotes, please. I have discussed this with him at length, and that is not what he told me - he did not seek "guidance" from Western boxers.
On Feb 24, 2010, at 12:11 AM, Lee Scheele wrote:
IIRC, William talks about the hands inside the gloves being like a t’ai chi fist.
That's exactly right, Lee - and of course a TCC fist is somewhat "looser" than a regular fist.
He made some comment about new gloves impeding proper hands because they were too stiff. Harder punches coming in rounds 3+ after the gloves break in.
Yeah, a new pair of gloves can really screw up your game, because they're still tight and stiff, and you hand ends up fighting the glove and clenching too tightly - everybody eventually has to buy new gloves, though, because they eventually stink so much from the accumulated sweat.
I eventually adapted a heating device from LL Bean that gently dries out hiking boots overnight to dry the inside of my gloves, prolonging their usefulness by quite some great margin - a good way to kill bacteria is to dry them out.....
FWIW, I remember hitting William in the face once when he was trying to teach me many years ago. Although I was apologetic, he just ignored it totally and kept on trying to correct me.
It gets better than that, Lee - in private lessons, master Chen does not wear a mouth-piece, so you can clearly hear his corrections; he just closes his jaw in a certain way to absorb the force of your shots - even after a solid hour of this, I've never seen him injured in any way as a result of doing this, and many people hold the opinion that I have a pretty forceful punch....
I’ve heard stories of his ability to punch, as well as to take a punch, that are quite impressive.
If he thinks you're not paying proper attention, he can tap you in the shoulder in a certain way that will make your entire body tremble for several minutes - some people actually go to the bathroom and throw up.....
If you insist on talking while he's explaining something, he may tap you with the back of his hand in your breastbone, and it takes your breath away for several minutes - a great way to shut a loudmouth up......
Although I don’t practice his style, his has been a lifelong study of t’ai chi body mechanics and I’ve always gotten useful ideas from his teaching.
I have moved on to other facets of TCC as well, but the lessons I learned from master Chen have served me very well - I will never forget his patience, kindness, and generosity to a young Tai Chi know-nothing like myself......
On Feb 24, 2010, at 9:54 AM, matt stampe wrote:
Thanks for the info. I have been to a San shou seminar by one of Wlilliam CC Chens (WCCC) students
Which student, may I ask?
and from what I thought he said WCCC did however explore striking from boxing and other Chinese martial arts.
"Exploring" how other people do things is not at all the same as whole-heartedly adopting their methods in their original form.
Sure, when he thought he should have an "Uppercut" in his repertoire of punches, sifu Chen looked at how boxers do it, but he also checked out Hung-gar and Choy-Li-Fut - and the resulting version that he came up with is much better than any of those, more biomechanically integrated with the natural workings of the shoulder joint, and still very smooth, relaxed, and "Internal".
And it is entirely cohesive with all the rest of his TCC method.
So WCCC's knowledge is not 100% pure Tai chi chuan.
Let me get this straight, Matt - from what you thought some guy said, you conclude with absolute finality that "WCCC's knowledge is not 100% pure Tai chi chuan."
With all due respect, does that sound like good reasoning to you?
My advice to you would be to go see sifu Chen himself, put on the gloves, and go a few rounds with him - then come back and tell me from first-hand experience whether you think what he is doing is "not 100% pure Tai Chi Chuan".
