Requirements of Internal Practice - Neijia

martial

--- Michael Phillips wrote:

Show me a judo player who can fa-jin, and I'll concede that judo is "the same" as TCC. Same for karate, BJJ, shaolin kung-fu, etc., etc., etc., etc.

Until then, fuhgeddaboutit...

--- Mario wrote:

Did not Adam just finished saying, that he fajin's. his throws? according to you, is this not possible?
I did not see the tapes, that Kelley, posted, But he did say that they were internal throws, did he not.
I also, have seen, many videos on YouTube, where tcc folks are throwing their students, are you saying that when a tai chi, master throws somebody, he is not doing fajin? just asking, so as to better understand where your coming from. thanks.

There are three main internal components:

Sinking the Chi
Mobilizing the Chi
Accelerating the Chi, or Fa-jin

Japanese martial artists, Korean martial artists, and certainly Shaolin, sometimes accomplish the first two of these things, but never the third. That's why fa-jin is the ultimate test.

Don't you think that Judo, Karate, Shaolin guys would all use fa-jin, if they could only figure it out?

Who wouldn't love to be able to do it?

But they can't figure out "how to get there from here".

Let me give you an example:

I used to buy martial arts supplies from aikido sensei Takagi, and one day I went down there to pick up some things, and it was the middle of the afternoon, and Takagi and some of his seniors were hanging around and informally working out.

They asked me to show them some of my stuff, so Takagi and I started to do what he called "pushing-hands" .

Now could I tell by touch, that he had succeeded in sinking the chi? Yes, absolutely.

Could he extend his chi? - Again, yes - but he couldn't consistently maintain that extension - it tended to "come out" when he did a technique, but then return to his dantien.

And he had good technique, so he was able to throw me to the mat several times, at first.

But when I did my first fa-jin on him and sent him flying halfway across the dojo, with hardly any movement at all on my part - they all looked at me as if I was an alien being from outer space.

Multiply this scenario by the dozens, and you basically have the Reader's Digest version of all my experiences with Japanese martial artists.

On May 15, 2010, at 10:18 AM, Mario mnpli@... wrote:

I, like Ueshiba, do not consider Aikido a martial art. so when it falls short martially, it's can be understood, given its limitations in training.

--- Michael Philips responds:

But you consider Judo a "martial art"?

I picked Aikido for my example because it is specifically a "Ki-based" art, as even its name implies.

But again, their method of body-movement is precisely what prevents them from being able to realize fa-jin -

Can they "sink the chi"? - Yes.

Can they "extend" the chi"? - Yes.

Can they fa-jin? - No.

And they never will, unless they radically change the way they "mobilize" their bodies in the first place.

--- On May 15, 2010, at 1:17 PM, Michael Phillips wrote:

what I wrote above is the result of 38 years of personal experience - ie., "crossing hands" with people - and careful observation.

[Mario replied:] So, have I, (but it seems we ended up with opposite point of views)
so what's this a stale mate? ;)

You can end the so-called "stale mate" at any time simply by producing a practitioner of Japanese, Korean, Okinawan, or Shaolin arts who can perform fa-jin.

Good luck with that project, my friend!....

[Michael:] the way they move their bodies, which is the very essence of the functionality of their styles, is the very barrier that prevents them from being able to do [fa-jin].

[ Mario:] You have not shown, that you can do it without it being under your control..... yet....

Nice of you to put in the "yet" - but the point remains that hard-stylists can't produce fa-jin because the structure and movements that are the foundations of their styles will not permit them to do so.

My experience is this:

Very few of hard-stylists achieve "sinking the chi", because they don't have a specific method for doing so;
For those that somehow do achieve "sinking the chi", it does very little for them, because they can't move it and manipulate it - it just becomes "ballast" for creating better root, and a kind of "pressure" that creates "structural reinforcement".
In other words, it is not a higher-functioning version of chi-development, but a much lower one.
For those few hard stylists that can both "sink the chi" and "extend" it into a specific technique, it still remains at a low level of development = basically, they can indeed "extend" or "mobilize" the chi into a technique, but then it quickly returns to their dantien; they cannot continuously maintain the chi movement, so each technique is a "one-off".
None of the hard stylists I have met have ever reached the level of sophistication of Chinese Internal Arts, in regard to chi manipulation.
They cannot even imagine how to fill the dantien, extend that "full" feeling to the entire body,
and then take it even further by learning how to ACCELERATE the chi into a force that can explosively blast someone right off their feet.
They will never figure it out, because their entire "modus operandi" is diametrically opposed to accomplishing this task.
Their only hope would be to drop everything they've been doing, and start all over again by learning an Internal art. And even then, that hope would be very slim, because old habits die hard.

I have said this here before, but it's perhaps worth repeating; this is a quote from my best teacher:

"The components of the Internal System create the basis for a very special weapon - assembled one way, it becomes "Tai Chi Chuan", assembled another, it becomes "Ba-gua", and assembled yet another way, it becomes "Hsing-I" - the "functional emphasis" of each particular weapon may change, but the basic components involved always remain the same."

Let's "cut to the chase" and make this one fact perfectly clear:

Even the more advanced "internal" training of External styles is radically 'different' than what is meant by the word 'internal' in Internal styles.

Again, I quote master Zhang-Yun:

"Many skills and technical words are same in these two styles but different in inside meaning.
If one cannot understand this point, he will always (be) confused by these similar things."

I think that everybody should pursue whatever style or styles they feel they have a proclivity towards, and I sincerely hope that everyone is very happy and satisfied with their practice, no matter what style they choose.

But there is only one way to practice both Internal and External styles - do the Internal style first, and to a very good level, until you yourself BECOME "Internal", and THEN anything you do, including an External style, will also be "Internal".

However, there are two problems inherent even in this approach:

Internal styles manifest energy by Relaxing the muscles of the body in a certain specific way, in order to create the internal version of 'jin'.
External styles manifest energy by Contracting the muscles of the body, also in very sophisticated and specific ways, in order to create the external version of jin.

As anyone can plainly see, these two approaches are not only "different", they are the direct OPPOSITE of each other!

In over 40 years of practice and study, I have never met anyone who could switch between these two opposite modalities with the required facility to practice both an Internal and External style to a Master-grade level.

Rikard Elofsson wrote:

" I can think of many Chinese masters that did or do both internal and "external" styles."

Hi Rikard - since you can think of so "many", it should be no trouble at all for you to list your top 10 Internal masters, who are actively practicing both an Internal and an External style.

I am guessing that we will find that most of them will fall into your "did" category above - ie., people who formerly practiced shaolin or some other External style, but who now practice an Internal style.

A good example would be Feng Zhiqiang, who is on record as having said that it took him a total of 12 years to overcome the "bad habits" of his former shaolin training and realize his full potential in TCC....

But as far as real master-grade practitioners who are now currently practicing both an Internal and External martial art to an equally high level, I predict you will have extreme difficulty filling your list of merely 10.

PS: Just to head this one off at the pass, there are NO "Internal-External" hybrid martial arts - being even partway external is a lot like being only a "little bit" pregnant -

it's an "all or nothing" proposition.

Kalama Sutta (Kalama Sutra)

Do not simply believe what you hear just because you have heard it for a long time.
Do no follow tradition blindly merely because it has been practiced that way for many generations.
Do not be quick to listen to rumors.
Do not confirm anything just because it agrees with your scriptures.
Do not foolishly make assumptions.
Do not abruptly draw conclusions by what you see and hear.
Do not be fooled by outward appearances.
Do not hold on tightly to any view or idea just because you are comfortable with it.
Do not accept as fact anything that you yourself find to be illogical.
Do not be convinced of anything out of respect and deference to your spiritual teachers.

You should go beyond opinion and belief. You can rightly reject anything which when accepted, practiced and perfected leads to more aversion, more craving and more delusion. They are not beneficial and are to be avoided. Conversely, you can rightly accept anything which when accepted and practiced leads to unconditional love, contentment and wisdom. These things allow you time and space to develop a happy and peaceful mind. This should be your criteria on what is and what is not the truth; on what should be and what should not be the spiritual practice.